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Talk:Romulan Bird-of-Prey (23rd century)
I have an image of the studio model. Should I include it? Ottens 19:26, 2 Feb 2005 (CET) There is no evidence the Enterprise was at warp during he actual fight with the Romulans. They only went to warp to get to the attacked outpost and then to outrun the plasma weapon. It seems more likely the Romulans received warp drive through the Klingon relationship in exchange for cloaking. Why else would they need Klingon vessels if not to support a nw tech they had not developed yet?--63.201.59.202 17:23, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) :If there is a question of whether the bird-of-prey had warp capability at the time of the episode - fine, but the Romulans definitely had warp capability as of ENT "United", etc to name one. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 18:04, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) Yes but enterprise is crap. Should we be considering something canon the purposefully seeks to disallign itself with previous series? :: Mark 2000 while I agree with your opinion on the series, we also must acknowledge that this site accepts that kind of stuff. What I try and do here is prevent Enterprise issues from compromising TOS integrity. Don't down the show just because we don't like it, as McCoy once said, "Why not try a carrot instead of a stick" --TOSrules 21:13, 20 Nov 2005 (UTC) :Yes. You are obviously not capable of considering this rationally -- we do consider Enterprise canon, especially in this case because it does not contradict TOS, simply that it clarifies something that TOS left unsaid. I don't see how Enterprise filling in the blanks where TOS left off to be "disaligning itself" -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 23:44, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::Its more like you like to just take what you are fed. Scotty said "simple impulse". Impulse power has ALWAYS refered to speed. Disregarding what he said is just throwing away the original writer's intentions. Sorry, I dont buy that "impulse power" is power that drives warp. Impulse is a drive powered by "fussion power". --Mark 2000 17:16, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::: You're incorrect. What Scotty says is "Pure impulse", and "impulse" can refer to a power source for a ship as well, as the USS Constellation had only its impulse engines in "Doomsday" and yet it was able to charge up shields and one phaser bank with that, along with rudimentary movement. There's nothing in canon that says that impulse power, which is presumably fusion-based, cannot power warp speeds as well. In fact, Cochrane's first test ship which reached Warp 1 probably did not have antimatter nor dilithium, rather its most likely power source was something nuclear. --Atrahasis 17:32, 29 Sep 2005 (UTC) :::: In Where No Man Has Gone Before Kirk mentions that "planets that were only hours away are now months away" due to the Enterprise having only impulse drive. This tends to support the idea that impulse power exceeds light speed. Any planet that could be reached at warp speed in hours would unquestionably be several light years away. Hardly a distance that could be covered in months using a sublight (or even near-light speed) drive. OS-Trek 14:59, 23 Nov 2005 (UTC) :Again, lack of rationality. Can you then explain why the Enterprise was chasing an impulse powered craft to the Neutral Zone at warp speed?? The B-o-P would have needed several years head start for the Enterprise to require the speeds it was pushing to catch it. --Gvsualan 22:11, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::Actually, did you even see the episode? The romulan ship is NEVER chased. The enterprise only has to push its engines to get to the scene and to escape the plasma mortar. After that there is *'no chase'*. They mirror the romulan ship move for move, only losing it when it stops moving. At what point in the episode is there a chase? --Mark 2000 23:02, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC) : One point not mentioned is the performance of the Bird of Prey in The Deadly Years. As I recall the Enterprise was traveling at warp speed when it crossed into the Neutral Zone and was handily intercepted by the Romulans. Also, Kirk felt he had to use a very high warp factor to flee from them after his little corbomite deception. IMO, this tends to support that the ships (at least by that episode) had warp capability. OS-Trek 19:57, 16 Nov 2005 (UTC) :: They fired the plasma bolt, which can outrun the Enterprise, it took the ship out of warp. I believe that the ship that fired the first shot may not have been in the battle if the Enterprise ended up far away. The strategy is sound because then other ships patrolling the Neutral Zone come in and pound the ship. There lack of warp drive may have helped the Corbomite Maneuver work. If they were to get out of range they had to start right away. Watch "Ellan of Troyius" if you want to know what a ship with only Impulse power can do. Well a Federation ship anyways. --TOSrules 03:24, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC) ::: Good points, I also recall that the result of the corbomite gambit was to cause the Romulans to give ground. This might support your contention since the plasma weapon had limited range. Regarding EoT, the impulse powered starship was not even a close match for the warp powered agressor. They couldn't even hit him until they lured him in and cut in the warp drive. Had it not been for the timely discovery of the necklace-cum-dilithium crystals the Enterprise would have undoubtedly been destroyed without so much as causing a scratch to the Orions.OS-Trek 15:10, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC) :::: The strategy shown in "The Deadly Years" has already been written into the article for a while now. Also the Enemy in EoT is the Klingons, not Romulans. Although they do have the same issue as in "Journy to Babel" that is fighting a faster ship. --TOSrules 19:04, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC) :::::I'm not sure what that means, but I'll take your word for it. You're right about the Klingons and EoT, I was confusing the ending with the ending of Journey to Babel for some reason. OS-Trek 19:29, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC) :::::: What part didn't you understand? --TOSrules 19:45, 23 Nov 2005 (UTC) ::if the romulans were not supposed to have warp drive in TOS, how did they fight an interstellar war against earth 100 years prior? presumably if earth ships were warp capable, and romulans were not, earth wouldn't have to sue for peace, they could just warp in and destroy the romulans in their homesystem. the romulans would have to travel for centuries to hit any earth colonies. plus, look at the line: Kirk: "Well, gentlemen, the question still remains: can we engage them with a reasonable possibility of victory?" Scott: "No question. Their '''power' is simple impulse."'' Kirk: "Meaning we can outrun them." Power usually refers to generation of electricity (or equivlent), not propulsion. a submarine can be nuclear powered, but it's not nuclear propelled. the line can be interpreted as the enterprise crew assuming that since romulan ships didn't have M/AM warp cores, that they were limited to lower warp speeds. plus, look at the neutral zone map in the same episode. if the romulans did not have warp drive, with the rate the romulan ship was moving between outposts, the outposts would have to be sitting inside the romulan's home star system. ignoring the orbital issues of a string of stationary facilities within a system, i find it unlikely that the nuetral zone would be declared if earth and the federation were already inside the system. in regards to the plasma bolt issue, i would point out that it's a mighty impressive gunner that can hit a ship travelling at 512c from a comparitively stationary platform. either the romulans had several hours worth of tracking data, or the ships could reach comparable warp speeds. likewise, i find it hard to beleive a warp weapon when ships lack warp speed. - Mithril, 15 june 2006 The measurements given are from the Decipher RPG, which is non-canon. It is listed at 68.2m in length. Ex Astris Scientia lists it at 131m, and the Daystrom Institute Technical Library lists it as 192m, based on the scale comparison in the Star Trek Encyclopedia. This matter needs to be resolved, and the current measurements should be removed. --Werideatdusk 23:08, 16 Nov 2005 (UTC) Dead link During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case! If the dead link is fixed, please also remove this comment. * http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies2a.htm ** In Earth-Romulan War on Tue Mar 14 21:49:06 2006, 404 Not Found ** In Earth-Romulan War on Sun May 07 21:03:12 2006, 404 Not Found ** In Romulan Bird-of-Prey (23rd century) on Sun May 07 22:07:36 2006, 404 Not Found --HighwindBot 20:07, 7 May 2006 (UTC) fixed the dead link. the page got moved to: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/history-romulan.htm Power Considerations Here is my theory. The Romulan BoP had to have warp drive, it's just way to impractical that it wouldn't. The BoP also had an advanced weapon, their plasma torpedo, and an advanced Defense system, the Cloak. Both of these systems required ENORMOUS ENERGY. In order to fire their weapon, they had to be decloaked. Perhaps they had to be decloaked in order to travel at warp too. In "Balance of Terror" the Romulan Commander was trying to get across the Neutral Zone, and Kirk was trying to get him before he crossed. The entire journey took place at impulse speeds. The Romulan commander kept the ship cloaked and made the journey on impulse so that he could avoid a head-to-head conflict with Kirk, which he would surely loose. Knowing that Kirk wouldn't cross the Neutral Zone, he could have gotten safely across the border, decloaked, and warped home. Scotty saying that the ships's power was "simple impulse," could have refered to the power the ship was using as it was observed, since upon cloaking, the power to the warp drive was cut off and completely diverted to the cloak. In "The Deadly Years," it is apparent that the BoP fires at warp. This is entirely plausible. In fact, the Plasma weapon will probably work better with the warp drive online, since the power for the weapon could be chanelled directly through the warp reactor, as the Refit Enterprise's phasers did in "The Motion Picture." This may also serve as another explanation why the ship could not fire while cloaked. That's my theory, for all it's worth. --Capatin MAJ, June 26, 2006 :logical. the romulan ship would warp over the zone, and proceeded under cloak at impulse through the solar system to attack the outpost, decloak, fire, recloak, and proceed under impulse to the edge of the system, decloak, warp to the next system, and repeat. the battle with the enterprise would take place within one solar system, as the romulan tries to shake the enterprise so it can decloak and warp off. makes sense. the only problem i see is that the outposts are supposed to be sensor 'listning posts' (as far as i can tell), and they should have detected the romulans warping across the zone. -Mithril 23:07, 26 June 2006 (UTC) ::This problem can be easily resolved. Presumably, the Listening posts made use of a Sensor network or grid on the borders of the Zone. The Listening post detected a ship crossing the zone. So as long as the Romulan BoP drops to impuse and cloaks to cross the border to the Zone, it can decloak upon passing through the sensor grid, and engage warp, only to perform the same process on the opposite side of the zone. The listening post never knew it was coming. ::This would also presuppose that the Romulan Cloaking technology has advanced considerably since the War, since the sensor grid was likely set up so that it could even detect the cloaked vessels of the time. --Captain MAJ 23:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC) :::with trek sensors able to detect other ships Lightyears away (even as of ENT), it would have a long trip undercloak though. perhaps the cloak can be set at a lower level to hide a ship from long range sensors? probably wouldn't make it invisible though.-Mithril 15:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC) ::::I suppose that's possible. At any rate, they had some way to get across the Zone undetected and under warp power, But at the same time they couldn't engage warp while the Enterprise was following them. Bottom Line: They had Warp Drive, But it's use was limited by power constraints, as happens often in Trek and even in the real world. --''Captain MAJ'' ''=/\='' 15:39, 27 June 2006 (UTC) There may very well be clear evidence of your theory. Take a look at these lines from the episode: BoP Ship's Power: "Unknown weapon. Completely destroyed, even though we were alerted. Had our deflector shield on maximum. Hit by enormous power." "Then they fired something at us--some form of high-energy plasma. Fantastic power." "Invisibility is theoretically possible, Captain--selectively bending light. But the power cost is enormous." "Their invisibility screen may work both ways. With that kind of power consumption, they may not be able to see us." "We know their achilles heel, Mr. Stiles. Their weapon takes all their energy. They must become visible to launch it." "We grow visible. Attend the cloaking system." "It consumes much power, Commander..." "He's shrewd, this starship commander. He tries to make us waste energy." BoP Ship's Fuel: "Commander, the reflection returns." "Activate our cloak." "Our fuel is low!" "He's a sorcerer, that one. He reads the thoughts in my brain. Our fuel supply all but gone..." "Still no sign of movement, Commander." "We're damaged ourselves. Our fuel reserve is gone!" I think we all finally know why the ship was only going impulse speed. --AC84 03:46, 23 September 2006. Just Wondering... Why everyone's calling this Warbird-class vessel from ToS a Bird of Prey. The Klingons had BoPs. The Romulans have Warbirds. It's been that way until the Retcon-riffic Enterprise decided to play all silly with the names.